what do u think of the idea of predefined materials? directory like with .nk files or .ies but with materials - no tex just surface properties - it could prove very useful for quick renders to have choice of several types of glass plastic water etc, on the other hand they would a great references for new users - for tweaking etc - is it possible ??
the other thing would be a couple of predefined render settings - from speed to extra quality - is this also possible??
cheers - tom
predefined matts/render setts?
Indeed. So your point would be to include simple material definitions within Indigo's release package, is that correct ? In the other hand that's somehow the purpose of test scenes... but an igm (Indigo Material) format was floating around some time ago, actually the file was just a material definition in XML language, just like into a normal scene.yeah but what do u mean? internet matt database?
Have a look here and here amongst other places, keyword: igm
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Well, I think that all these requests (materials + render presets) can be fullfilled by the exporter writers 
For instance Maya to Indigo devellopers have added such presets to the exporter, wich in turn tell Indigo what options to use.
Really I think it's not up to OnoSendai but exporter writers !
For instance Maya to Indigo devellopers have added such presets to the exporter, wich in turn tell Indigo what options to use. Really I think it's not up to OnoSendai but exporter writers !
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It's an interesting idea.
The main problem IMO is size.
A nice hi-res texture can be 500KB or so.
So if you have a material with albedo map, bump map, possibly exponent map, that could be a MB or more of already compressed data.
So it's gonna make the Indigo download a lot bigger.
On the other hand including some really nice materials in the Indigo download could be very useful and valuable for users.
The main problem IMO is size.
A nice hi-res texture can be 500KB or so.
So if you have a material with albedo map, bump map, possibly exponent map, that could be a MB or more of already compressed data.
So it's gonna make the Indigo download a lot bigger.
On the other hand including some really nice materials in the Indigo download could be very useful and valuable for users.
I agree presently there is a gap between usability and providing the numerous physically accurate settings
Really it is just the way things have evolved rather than a plan gone off course
In the case of blendigo it probably needs a UI make over
At one time I had made the beginnings of a preset menu in blendigo but it stalled there pending a rewrite by zeugs (that didn't happen...)
At the moment a solution that has been loosely talked about is a split between an easy artistic mode and a full technical mode
The arty mode would include some form of preset materials
At some point though most users will need to sit down and learn the nuts and bolts of indigo rather than expect options to yield an excellent render.. and there is no getting away from the UV work..
To some extent new users are handicapped by firstly a lack of vital info and secondly the fact that what there is is spread out across the forums
I would like to think we can revisit our approach some time soon but as an old work horse blendigo manages to incorporate the additions well
I guess we will keep it a while longer while development continues
Advances are somewhat beholden to the generosity of the community as well
It doesn't help so much that indigo being semi commercial in nature has a somewhat undefined relationship with its users and contributors
If it was open source people would probably feel more comfortable contributing materials etc
As it is you are probably going to continue providing your own accessories to the core package and doing some graft to make up for its shortcomings
In short if ono wants presets or a small library for his renderer he will 'sell' or 'demo' he can provide them (or adopt some) in the download and we will link to them in the exporters -or at least thats my take on it
Of course nothing should stop members of the community from putting something together if they want..
Really it is just the way things have evolved rather than a plan gone off course
In the case of blendigo it probably needs a UI make over
At one time I had made the beginnings of a preset menu in blendigo but it stalled there pending a rewrite by zeugs (that didn't happen...)
At the moment a solution that has been loosely talked about is a split between an easy artistic mode and a full technical mode
The arty mode would include some form of preset materials
At some point though most users will need to sit down and learn the nuts and bolts of indigo rather than expect options to yield an excellent render.. and there is no getting away from the UV work..
To some extent new users are handicapped by firstly a lack of vital info and secondly the fact that what there is is spread out across the forums
I would like to think we can revisit our approach some time soon but as an old work horse blendigo manages to incorporate the additions well
I guess we will keep it a while longer while development continues
Advances are somewhat beholden to the generosity of the community as well
It doesn't help so much that indigo being semi commercial in nature has a somewhat undefined relationship with its users and contributors
If it was open source people would probably feel more comfortable contributing materials etc
As it is you are probably going to continue providing your own accessories to the core package and doing some graft to make up for its shortcomings
In short if ono wants presets or a small library for his renderer he will 'sell' or 'demo' he can provide them (or adopt some) in the download and we will link to them in the exporters -or at least thats my take on it
Of course nothing should stop members of the community from putting something together if they want..
hey master!OnoSendai wrote:It's an interesting idea.
The main problem IMO is size.
A nice hi-res texture can be 500KB or so.
So if you have a material with albedo map, bump map, possibly exponent map, that could be a MB or more of already compressed data.
So it's gonna make the Indigo download a lot bigger.
On the other hand including some really nice materials in the Indigo download could be very useful and valuable for users.
1- there could be two versions of indi - small and big(feauture full)
2- but my point was to create material library without textures - for experienced indi user there is no problem with water, milk , proper lampshade, glas , colored glass , tea , wine and loooot more matts without texture , which require proper settings and tons of experience and test renders
cheers / happy xmas!
This feature can and should be incorporated into all the exporters, not indigo itself. SkIndigo has had material and lighting presets ever since version 0.6. It seems to be a very effective way for new users to learn about basic material settings. Just select a preset from the library and then tweak the settings or add textures to meet your needs.pxl666 wrote:2- but my point was to create material library without textures - for experienced indi user there is no problem with water, milk , proper lampshade, glas , colored glass , tea , wine and loooot more matts without texture , which require proper settings and tons of experience and test renders
cheers / happy xmas!
well yes it could
for my SW blendigo variant I was providing whole premade studio scenes as a .blend to assist users
my issue is that I see the jagged line of responsibility is now on ono's side to provide preset/demo materials for use rather than have the community do it since it promotes indigo use and skills - it should be in the core download
after all people are using this commercially - why would I spend my time helping anothers business?
sorry if it was just for blender artists and hobbyists I would certainly revisit it ...but then again what goes into blendigo is up to smartden anyhow...
I dont know.. this issue becomes more difficult as time goes on
for my SW blendigo variant I was providing whole premade studio scenes as a .blend to assist users
my issue is that I see the jagged line of responsibility is now on ono's side to provide preset/demo materials for use rather than have the community do it since it promotes indigo use and skills - it should be in the core download
after all people are using this commercially - why would I spend my time helping anothers business?
sorry if it was just for blender artists and hobbyists I would certainly revisit it ...but then again what goes into blendigo is up to smartden anyhow...
I dont know.. this issue becomes more difficult as time goes on
Hey Big Fan, let Ono manage that, don't bang your head mate 
Maybe if a material editor like Carmine, or similar, was set up then it could be shipped with a bunch of presets. I for one like powerfull apps in small packages !
<edit> if you look in the recent Development forum, you'll notice not less than 3 different projects for a material editor. I would focus my efforts in that direction in order to release pressure from Ono's shoulders. At least this would conform with my idea of a community. BTW this editor would be the tool through wich users create, export and share materials.
</edit>
Maybe if a material editor like Carmine, or similar, was set up then it could be shipped with a bunch of presets. I for one like powerfull apps in small packages !
<edit> if you look in the recent Development forum, you'll notice not less than 3 different projects for a material editor. I would focus my efforts in that direction in order to release pressure from Ono's shoulders. At least this would conform with my idea of a community. BTW this editor would be the tool through wich users create, export and share materials.
</edit>
I don't have clear in mind the path your mind went to reach that conclusion. If that's just me then nevermindmy issue is that I see the jagged line of responsibility is now on ono's side to provide preset/demo materials for use rather than have the community do it since it promotes indigo use and skills - it should be in the core download
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How would people use those pre-made materials?
By hand editing an xml and adding an <include>material</inglude> tags where needed? Doesn't sound very easy to me. So it still comes down to exporter level (as already suggested). I see no point including material presets with the main package. At least not for the common people.
By hand editing an xml and adding an <include>material</inglude> tags where needed? Doesn't sound very easy to me. So it still comes down to exporter level (as already suggested). I see no point including material presets with the main package. At least not for the common people.
Well this is ono's pet project he is going to sell eventually so its his load to carry ultimately - I dont see myself as being here to help him with that
To my mind we have passed the early experimental phase and what was the bunch of 'geek' enthusiasts have to some extent moved on.
Now we have users picking it up for commercial work I think the cooperative understanding we had has shifted some.
If you look at the logons there are probably 3x as many people browsing as participating and even those dont do a lot
Put it another way then I won't do it
If ono wants some preset mats for beginners he can provide them as he does the .igs examples
and look anyway this sharing of materials has been around for quite a while and it really hasnt taken off..
To my mind we have passed the early experimental phase and what was the bunch of 'geek' enthusiasts have to some extent moved on.
Now we have users picking it up for commercial work I think the cooperative understanding we had has shifted some.
If you look at the logons there are probably 3x as many people browsing as participating and even those dont do a lot
Put it another way then
I won't do itIf ono wants some preset mats for beginners he can provide them as he does the .igs examples
and look anyway this sharing of materials has been around for quite a while and it really hasnt taken off..
Last edited by Big Fan on Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sharing of materials is a cool idea but in my mind I became worried about materials being posted that were copies or near copies (still bad) of materials from another site. I wanted to have some presets but I also do not want to end up in legal trouble. 
Especially when it comes to textures.
There used to be a free 3d model site I think, I read on the Blender site they ended up in legal trouble because people uploaded models that were owned by someone else. Which can happen by accident easily enough nowadays. (sometimes finding a model that appears free from one place but really is not free)
Trying to write presets into an exporter is not my idea of fun either. Trying to work with Blender features and Python code to export some materials into Indigo format. Then maintaining the code as Blender goes through changes to the Python API. That's why I made Carmine.
Especially when it comes to textures.There used to be a free 3d model site I think, I read on the Blender site they ended up in legal trouble because people uploaded models that were owned by someone else. Which can happen by accident easily enough nowadays. (sometimes finding a model that appears free from one place but really is not free)
Trying to write presets into an exporter is not my idea of fun either. Trying to work with Blender features and Python code to export some materials into Indigo format. Then maintaining the code as Blender goes through changes to the Python API. That's why I made Carmine.
Last edited by Wedge on Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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