Past-present-future features of unbiased renderers

Discuss stuff not about Indigo.
Hybaj
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Past-present-future features of unbiased renderers

Post by Hybaj » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:38 pm

I would like to hear all your suggestions for future features or suggestion for current feature modifications.

Here's my attempt :

Sky&sun system

Current sky systems in unbiased renderers are so limited. Yes they are likely to be physically correct but they give you only 5% of what skies can look like depending on different atmospheric conditions. If we look at all those terrain apps like Vue, Terragen 2 we can see that their sky systems are soooo tweakable. I'm not sure about the physical corectness of those sky systems but with some tweaking you can create hunderds of different sky gradients + sunlights which can always look super nice and super real. Much more real than the current sky systems based on that single paper.

Displacement

A feature that slowly crawls to unbiased renderers. Displacement is definitely future because with the processor developement we can start switching from bump mapping to displacement. Bump-maps only work for low surface deformation and it heavily suffers from the fact it cannot shadow itself. The new maxwell's non-polygonal displacement looks like the best implementation of displacement in a renderer to date. This approach sure smells like displacement's future. Also vector displacement support is the future for all of us high-tech displacers.

Material System

While the current material models are cool they're kinda not that flexible. I would really love to have the option again to set the reflection through a simple vertex controlable falloff curve. The basic idea is the ability to go way beyond physicaly correct properties of the material. Who cares if it's not physically correct when it looks good ;)

+ It's great to finally see the phong energy loss is being solved.
+ The abbility to read volume 3d grid datasets (let there be smoke, or clouds)

Tone Mapping

A renderer spits out an image which is raw as it gets and then you have an editor with like thousands of different sliders, tweakable curves, histograms for everything possible so you can tone map your ass off it and create all kinds of different looks. Again the ability to push it way beyong the borders of looking real.

Aeronoise™ (implemented in Fryrender by Feversoft)

A mandatory feature! For those who don't know it, it's a feature that lets you paintbrush a selection area over the rendering to tell the CPU to only focus on those parts of the images. It's an insane timesaver for areas that clear slower than the rest. Maybe some kind of a percentage feature would be cool too. I see some area of developement in this feature.

Render channels

Not much to write here. From alpha channel to everything else.

Real time preview

Radium renderer had it and now Vray is going to have it. Simply a perfecto feature. Imagine changing tweaking the params and having an almost direct feedback on it.

Speed

Well I don't care about speed if I can get what I want. Btw still hadn't heard a single statement about the Coherent MLT with Multiple-Try Mutations ( http://bat710.univ-lyon1.fr/~bsegovia/p ... f/cmlt.pdf )paper from a renderer developer. Is that technique worth a try?? Ian, Radiance, Chema, Ono .. hello??

Fin

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WytRaven
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Post by WytRaven » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:24 pm

Who cares if it's not physically correct when it looks good
Me...

If you don't care then feel free to go play with mental ray or any of the other physically incorrect renderers out there.
Last edited by WytRaven on Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:idea: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..." - Emerson 1841

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manitwo
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Post by manitwo » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:50 pm

WytRaven wrote:
Who cares if it's not physically correct when it looks good
Me...
me not :)

Hybaj
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Post by Hybaj » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:21 pm

WytRaven wrote:
Who cares if it's not physically correct when it looks good
Me...

If you don't care then feel free to go play with mental ray or any of the other physically incorrect renderers out there.
Do you use physically correct ior maps, roughness maps and bump/displacement maps for your renderings only?? Oh wait a minute. A roughness map doesn't exist in real world. That's faking if you ask me. A physically correct faking?? .....well...

See the point???

Material research is the next big task for the cg world ;)

An unbiased renderer is cool because the light distribution is physically correct and it's artifact free. That's what renderers like Vray and Mental Ray can't grant you.

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Headroom
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Post by Headroom » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:02 am

I'd side with WytRaven.

If you need "tweakability" then an unbiased renderer is not necessarily what you may want to use.
If you strive for photorealistic, but not photoaccurate then why use an unbiased rendeder alltogether ?

Also if the "aerosoft" feature, or any other feature available in comercially available software packages is such a mandantory one for you, then go ahead and buy them.

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OnoSendai
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Post by OnoSendai » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:52 am

You forgot one:

integrated espresso rendering

After each render, if this option is enabled, a complimentary cup of coffee will be produced for the user. There should be optional settings for milk and sugar.

jeffr
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Post by jeffr » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:11 am

OnoSendai wrote:You forgot one:

integrated espresso rendering

After each render, if this option is enabled, a complimentary cup of coffee will be produced for the user. There should be optional settings for milk and sugar.
lol :lol:

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Camox
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Post by Camox » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:16 am

And what of cappuccino or milk coffee ? :roll:

Thats awesome futures dude. When can we expect ? :D

Hybaj
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Post by Hybaj » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:58 am

Headroom wrote: Also if the "aerosoft" feature, or any other feature available in comercially available software packages is such a mandantory one for you, then go ahead and buy them.
Already bought a few ;)

And this thread isn't about me but about the renderers - and not just the indigo renderer. Share your love for the renderers and also share your ideas for the future. When I talk about tweakability my only dillema is with the whole "physically correct" material system which is infact quite restraining, tone mapping and the sky-systems. Everything else is fine with me. Having a physically correct light distribution is important because of psychological issues - it's very important to have a natural looking light since it strikes the eye the most even if the scene contains unnatural physically incorrect things.

The talk about Aerosoft...well it's a good feature just like the exit portals were. Why did Ono implement exit portals or a skysystem?? Because those were cool features to have. Saying that it's mandatory is maybe a bit strong but it's definitely going to be a standard feature among unbiased renderers.

Oops and I abused the word unbiased so much that it looks that I always mean that unbiased means automaticaly physically correct which is not true.

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zsouthboy
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Post by zsouthboy » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:11 am

OnoSendai wrote:You forgot one:

integrated espresso rendering

After each render, if this option is enabled, a complimentary cup of coffee will be produced for the user. There should be optional settings for milk and sugar.
Ono, I got an error while trying to use this feature:

Code: Select all

Error parsing Coffee.h
Error parsing MilkSSS.cpp

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dougal2
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Post by dougal2 » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:18 am

strange, i get a different error:

Code: Select all

Error in Coffee::Addwater() - mug overflow

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jurasek
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Post by jurasek » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:51 am

dougal2 wrote:strange, i get a different error:

Code: Select all

Error in Coffee::Addwater() - mug overflow
;)

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Kram1032
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Post by Kram1032 » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:57 am

Code: Select all

Error: Milk particles in Coffee are aero-noised. please get a CPU with SSE €ßßpr€ßß° to solve that issue. Windows shuts down, until you get one.
:shock: I really should switch to linux :?

IanT
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Post by IanT » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:00 am

Real time preview

Radium renderer had it and now Vray is going to have it. Simply a perfecto feature. Imagine changing tweaking the params and having an almost direct feedback on it.


I've been told by many people clearly more knowledgeable than myself that Java isn't fast enough to do realtime ray-tracing so it must have been a figment of your imagination :wink:


Speed

Well I don't care about speed if I can get what I want. Btw still hadn't heard a single statement about the Coherent MLT with Multiple-Try Mutations ( http://bat710.univ-lyon1.fr/~bsegovia/p ... f/cmlt.pdf )paper from a renderer developer. Is that technique worth a try?? Ian, Radiance, Chema, Ono .. hello??


Definitely worth a try... I'm betting that KT's going to be the first to get a more advanced form of MLT given that clipi has about a hundred papers on uber-Metropolis techniques (from fields as diverse as biology, X-ray sciencey stuff etc.). Of course, Ono's a clever chap indeed, so maybe I shouldn't bet quite yet...

Ian.

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CoolColJ
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Post by CoolColJ » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:31 pm

As far as Aeronoise goes

I think it works ok with bidirectional path tracing, but I'm not convinced if it will work that well with MLT, with MLT mutating all over the place!

You would need something else, some kind of priority system

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