Indigo Renderer Forum

Dear Sirs,
I'm a Vray user on 3DS Max.
I downloaded your demo and Maxigo plugin because I need a valid alternative to Vray.

I don't understand many things about Indigo:

A) I don't see any performance boost using the GPU because to create a good render you need only the Metropolis engine.
watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70uNjjplYzA somebody knows how to use it on gpus.
B) Why Vray use bidirectonal path-tracing and Indigo don't?
C) Impossible to create transparent shadows through glass objects
D) I created a simple scene with sky, sun and internal ies. With sun/sky enabled you can't adjust (and see) ies lights.
E) Why don't you develop serious plugins integrated with the 3d applications? Maxigo is a script, not all Indigo 3.0 parameters are implemented. If you set a background with a black rgb value Indigo crashes. If you put in the scene target ies lights Indigo will stop, you can add only free point ies. Maxigo guy tested the software before to release it? In few minutes I found several bugs. You can't drag textures on maxigo displacement modifier, if you select NONE from the Max texture you won't be able anymore to change the texture, you have to delete the operator. Etc.
F) Impossible to renderize in path tracing ies lights, neither with pathtracing and MLT, for me worked only with bidirectional path + MLT
G) Where is the material editor? In the old version I remember a material editor with a sphere preview.
H) Where are lights, sun, sky parameters in the object lister?
I) How I identify an object name in the scene editor, in Max if I name an object like "table01" I should see "table01" inside Indigo gui.
L) Why Indigo is so expensive? If I want to use all my 8 workstations I have to spend 1.765€. To do a comparison Vray is cheaper and offers a perfect integration with Max.
....
Ok you will say. Indigo with free plugins is compatible with six 3d softwares (Max, Maya, etc.)
What I want is a robust integration with Max, an intensive GPU use for all rendering methods

Conclusions:
I think that Indigo makes incredible renderings and I need an alternative for Vray. I need GPU implemented for bidirectional path tracing and Metropolis. I have 8 networked GTX580 that work very well with Vray-RT.
A good interface like external program for various 3d softwares, for example, is Maxwell.

BTW, your gallery is stunning, I donno how many days are necessary to create that type of images. I haven't a lot of time to calculate a rendering. In two/three hours and 8 workstations i create 3000x2500 pixels images without any noise.

Best regards.

To feed or not to feed, that is the question.

I do know that the next version of the maxigo plugin will be integrated into max and not run as a script. When it will be ready I am not sure but I myself am looking forward to it.

deleted my msg as not relevant anymore

Hi saudade,

saudade wrote:Dear Sirs,
I'm a Vray user on 3DS Max.
I downloaded your demo and Maxigo plugin because I need a valid alternative to Vray.

I don't understand many things about Indigo:

A) I don't see any performance boost using the GPU because to create a good render you need only the Metropolis engine.
watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70uNjjplYzA somebody knows how to use it on gpus.

We are planning to look into GPU accelerated MLT, but we didn't get around to it yet.

saudade wrote:B) Why Vray use bidirectonal path-tracing and Indigo don't?

Indigo does use bidirectional pathtracing. It should be available in the exporter as an option and if not, it is in the Indigo UI (it is only changeable if the rendering is stopped).

saudade wrote:C) Impossible to create transparent shadows through glass objects

Bidirectional pathtracing does that quite well. Also, for thin, flat glass, we have a special "glass acceleration" mode, that improves exactly that, available in single and bidirectional mode.

saudade wrote:D) I created a simple scene with sky, sun and internal ies. With sun/sky enabled you can't adjust (and see) ies lights.

IES files have a brightness encoded, which can not be overridden by the emission spectrum you chose, but can be with the "emission scaling" feature.

saudade wrote:E) Why don't you develop serious plugins integrated with the 3d applications? Maxigo is a script, not all Indigo 3.0 parameters are implemented. If you set a background with a black rgb value Indigo crashes. If you put in the scene target ies lights Indigo will stop, you can add only free point ies. Maxigo guy tested the software before to release it? In few minutes I found several bugs. You can't drag textures on maxigo displacement modifier, if you select NONE from the Max texture you won't be able anymore to change the texture, you have to delete the operator. Etc.

Yes, the 3dsmax exporter is lacking in some ways (sorry about that), but we and the max plugin developer are working on improving the situation.

Regarding an integrated solution, we are currently putting together an updated SDK, which should enable fully integrated solutions.

saudade wrote:F) Impossible to renderize in path tracing ies lights, neither with pathtracing and MLT, for me worked only with bidirectional path + MLT

Path tracing struggles with IES because for IES the emitters have to be relatively small. Bidir is a way better choice for that scenario.

Also, if your IES emitter is behind a glass plane, normal path tracing will stuggle even more, unless you have "glass acceleration" turned on.

saudade wrote:G) Where is the material editor? In the old version I remember a material editor with a sphere preview.

The material editor is now integrated into the main UI. It isn't perfect yet, but we are working hard on improving the workflow and on making all the features the old material editor had available.

To get the preview scene and edit a material on it, press "File" -> "New Material" in the menu bar (latest build, 3.0.14, iirc).

saudade wrote:H) Where are lights, sun, sky parameters in the object lister?

Many parameters on the scene aren't editable yet form the Indigo UI, but we are wokring on making it available.

saudade wrote:I) How I identify an object name in the scene editor, in Max if I name an object like "table01" I should see "table01" inside Indigo gui.

That's an issue for historical reasons. Prior to 3.0, there was no way to look at the scene, let alone names of objects, during rendering, so having proper names on the objects wasn't very important. This will hopefully be changed by the exporter writers in upcoming releases of the exporters.

Kind regards,
Yves

Did a bit of moderation here.

OP was only asking questions, no need to call him a troll or to get at each others thoats

fused wrote:Hi saudade,

saudade wrote:E) Why don't you develop serious plugins integrated with the 3d applications? Maxigo is a script, not all Indigo 3.0 parameters are implemented. If you set a background with a black rgb value Indigo crashes. If you put in the scene target ies lights Indigo will stop, you can add only free point ies. Maxigo guy tested the software before to release it? In few minutes I found several bugs. You can't drag textures on maxigo displacement modifier, if you select NONE from the Max texture you won't be able anymore to change the texture, you have to delete the operator. Etc.

Yes, the 3dsmax exporter is lacking in some ways (sorry about that), but we and the max plugin developer are working on improving the situation.

Yves

Not only Maxigo is lacking.

Blendigo for Blender 2.58.1 is lacking as well.
In my opinion it's nothing more than a Betarelease but the Blendigo-Thread thread succests me a full functional release.

I generally agree with the most of the points of saudade.
I'm a bit confused about the lacking way Indigorenderer developes it's exportscripts.
I'm looking for a usable workflow with Blender 2.58.1 but at the moment there is none.
I'm Missing a Materialpreview like Luxrender has.

And I also very miss Bi-Directional Pathtracing with GPU accelaration inclusive Exitportalsupport.

I know the GPU-world is only a little baby yet. And none of the big competitors support all wished features at the moment.

Must have for GPU-rendering is:
Instancing support.
Directlight through glass.
Exitportalsupport.
Support Alphashadows.
A way to reduce noise of glossy materials.

Kind regards
Alain

Alain wrote:I'm looking for a usable workflow with Blender 2.58.1 but at the moment there is none.
I'm Missing a Materialpreview like Luxrender has.

At least Dougal is updating the Exporter quit frequently:

Blendigo 2.5 beta => May 21st
Blendigo 3.0.10 => Jul 26th
Blendigo 3.0.10.1 => Jul 31st
Blendigo 3.0.14 => Aug 1st

He is also the developer of the Blender Exporter for Lux, so I'm sure the material preview will find its way into Blendigo

Finally guys please remember that Indigo v3 is still in beta and gets updated very frequently targeting bugs & adding new features. If the final stable version hits the net, then you are allowed to start blaming them...

I do not agree with the general tone of the initial post.

Many of these posts share a frustration that is to a good degree self inflicted. Folks hear about a new (to them) software and get excited about a particular feature (or shall we call it overinflated Buzzword) - GPU support for example. The next step is then likely to go look at the website and perhaps they have a gallery. "Best of Indigo" is obvoiusly aimed at showing only the finest renders and quite naturally the people who have created these have spend quite a while with it - weeks and months rather than days - and developed an understanding of how it works in order to be able to generate these kind of renders.

So once thoroughly impressed the download button is just a click away and the we swiftly proceed to installation and a short evaluation period of perhaps a couple of days. Of course things are not quite that easy. The GUI is different and some things don't work as expected and frustrations set in.

The forum is just a click away as well and there and the frustration is quickly vented, however, in our haste we failed to inform ourselves properly!

Given the investment and the business impact it would take to run Indigo on as many as 8 workstations it makes plain business sense to go through a very thorough evaluation period and use the 30 day trial period to the very fullest and perhaps use the free version for a while after that just to be sure it's the right tool for me. PArt of that evaluation should by any means include some engagement of the developers and more experienced folks on the forum to be sure all questions are answered so misperceptions can be avoided and perhaps to get a hint or two on how they created their stunning artwork.

If pricing is the problem there is no reason not to engage sales directly per email or phone rather than with an aggravated and somewhat abrasive forum post.

Indigo has a strong forum with experienced users willing to share their knowledge, which worth more than certain advertized features. YMMV

Alain wrote: Blendigo for Blender 2.58.1 is lacking as well.
In my opinion it's nothing more than a Betarelease but the Blendigo-Thread thread succests me a full functional release.
[...]
I'm looking for a usable workflow with Blender 2.58.1 but at the moment there is none.

You are correct, blendigo for blender 2.58 is a beta in that sense that it is a different application than the one for the previous blender releases. For instance, motion blur is just shipping for 2.58 while it was there already for 2.49.

As for an usable workflow there must be one, check StompinTom's amazing work: http://www.indigorenderer.com/forum/vie ... =4&t=10995
Tom is leaving 2.49 alone nowadays.

Alain wrote:And I also very miss Bi-Directional Pathtracing with GPU accelaration inclusive Exitportalsupport.

Me too I am pretty sure that BiDir + GPU is on the works though.

Now, talking about Indigo (not blendigo for blender 2.58 specifically):

Alain wrote:Must have for GPU-rendering is:
Instancing support.

Works for me.

Alain wrote:Directlight through glass.

Works for me as well. If the checkbox for Glass Acceleration is not in blendigo yet that will not last, and the option is accessible from the Indigo GUI.

Alain wrote:Exitportalsupport.

Right. PT is simpler (hence faster) than BiDir, the counterpart is that it comes with some limitations inherent to the technique.

Alain wrote:Support Alphashadows.

Exact same problem than above with PT if I am understanding you correctly.

Alain wrote:A way to reduce noise of glossy materials.

I suspect that might be a biased way. A lot has been done in this regard already.

Alain wrote:Kind regards
Alain

Cheers !